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Home - General / All posts - Radian VS Manifold georegistration tool (and Manifold viewer capability to import photos)
Corentin47 post(s)
#28-Jun-17 10:50

Hello,

I got about 10 satellite photo of Benin from an ArcGIS project, when exported in .bmp file they represent 9Go of Data. Some are georegistered, some are not. We will have to register them and maybe change their projection.

Opening these photo in Manifold 8.30 takes hours, I havn't tried yet to register them in Manifold 8.30, but I guess it will take a lot of time to manipulate such big photos.

A colleague of mine has Radian but hasn't tested it deeply, he told me that there may be no spatial tools like "control point" in Radian and no way to register satellites photos. Do you confirm that?

Today was released Manifold Viewer, I havn't found there either any "control point" like tool. Do you confirm there is no registration tool in Manifold viewer?

I am a bit disapointed to see that Manifold Viewer is very slow to open these images. Either opening a manifold file which contains these images or by importing them directly takes a lot of time (>10mn) and totaly overload my computer (Windows 8; i5; 8Go RAM)

adamw


7,972 post(s)
#28-Jun-17 11:19

Neither Radian Studio nor Manifold Viewer currently include registration tools similar to those of Manifold 8. That's something we are working to add in the future.

Regarding the performance of viewing images - have your colleague with Radian open and resave the MAP file. Radian MAP files are different from Manifold 8 MAP files. The initial migration process does take quite a bit of time - most of that time is spent doing the equivalent of opening the file in Manifold 8 - but if you then save the result as a Radian MAP file, that opens instantly ever after.

adamw


7,972 post(s)
#28-Jun-17 11:29

Also: what is the performance if you import the BMP files directly into Manifold Viewer? That should be faster than importing them into Manifold 8, then saving the MAP file, then opening the MAP file in Manifold Viewer. Although still minutes, because that's 9 GB of data and you probably won't be able to achieve much more than ~50 MB/s = 3 min for all 9 GB, because that's about how fast typical hard drives go, and there is overhead for arranging tiles into an index, producing intermediate levels, etc.

Dimitri


4,899 post(s)
#28-Jun-17 12:06

I am a bit disapointed to see that Manifold Viewer is very slow to open these images.

You have to say in what format. If you think it is slow you clearly are not using Radian .map format, which opens everything instantly. You must be using a slow format. Slow formats are slow, and fast formats are faster. Super-fast formats like Radian .map are instantaneous. It's true that intrinsic Radian speed can open many slow formats faster than other products. For example, recently there have been some comparisons as to how fast Radian can open (load) various raster formats compared to Arc and others. But there is only so much you can do with a slow format.

It's like the difference between finding an audio file on a cassette tape and the totally instantaneous random access you get with a modern zip drive. You could have the fastest parallel computer on the planet and it is not going to make the cassette tape spin any faster on a cassette player.

.bmp is a slow format, a very old format that is not a good choice for 9 GB images. How long does it take to import a .bmp in ArcGIS Pro? A good example is how quickly Radian can open a big raster in 1/10 second that takes Arc anywhere from 3 minutes to 30 minutes.

A much better choice for 9 GB images is Radian .map format, which opens the target data set in 1/10 second.

Opening these photo in Manifold 8.30 takes hours ...

Either opening a manifold file which contains these images

Manifold Release 8 was not designed to run super fast with big images. It was designed to do a good job of smoothly integrating vector and raster function given the sizes of project most people did.

As image sizes went up, Manifold developed Radian. Working with big images requires Radian technology. Use that and both Radian and Viewer will open the file instantly. If you have images in Release 8, open the Release 8 .map with Radian and save it as a Radian project. After that it will open in 1/10th second. That's what you want, true?

If you want super-fast, parallel performance, as discussed in the Getting Started topic (... a good idea to read carefully for useful tips...), as adamw recommends get a friend with Radian to save your big .bmp into fast Radian format. Or buy a Radian license and do it yourself. :-)

Note, by the way, that if you don't want to buy Radian or have a colleague help you use hyper-fast Radian format in Viewer, you still have a useful standalone tool in Viewer. It will open that .bmp faster than something that cost you a few thousand dollars from ESRI, and it will do it for free.

Corentin47 post(s)
#28-Jun-17 12:59

Thank you very much for your answers.

Some precisions :

"What I want to do" :

We got large photo included in an ArcGIS DataBase we need to work with these photo, preferably with Manifold (or Radian) because (i) we are used to Manifold, (ii) We don't know very much ArcGIS (iii) we don't have many licences of ArcGIS

We need to evaluate the quality and coverage of these photo (11 photos from 300Mo to 3Go), and then edit map (in pdf, and print them) overlaying photos and vectors data

The way I found to transfer them from ArcGIS to Manifold was to use .bmp format, it is maybe not the best way, if someone can advice me of a more pratical format it will be helpfull

Some photo are georegistered in ArcGIS, some are not and need to be registered

If Radian has no "Manifold Layout"-like object, if Radian has no "Manifold controll point"-like tool it is not the tool we need for registering photo and printing maps

If Radian (and Manifold Viewer) can import and save (in few hours) my manifoldV8 .map file of 9Go and then open it in few seconds that can be helpfull for working with theses photos when they will be registered.

To resume, I have 2 questions:

1. "Which format of export is the best from ArcGIS to import in Manifold big rasters"?

2. Am I right on my analyse of capability of Manifold V8 VS Radian/Manifold Viewer?

adamw


7,972 post(s)
#28-Jun-17 13:36

"Which format of export is the best from ArcGIS to import in Manifold big rasters"?

If transferring data from ArcGIS to Manifold 8 / Radian Studio / Manifold Viewer is a one time task, use whichever format loses less data. BMP wouldn't be my first choice, but it has the benefit of being very simple, so if the image is either grayscale or RGB with no more than 8 bits per channel, it should work, and the coordinate system is best transferred via a PRJ.

If transferring data is a recurring task or the image isn't just a simple color image - say, it's a DEM with 32-bit floating-point values - I'd try using either BIL or GeoTIFF, adding a PRJ in both cases (yes, even for GeoTIFF).

For huge images, there is an option to use ECW or JPEG2000. Radian Studio / Manifold Viewer also support SID.

Am I right on my analyse of capability of Manifold V8 VS Radian/Manifold Viewer?

To register components using control points and / or use layouts, use Manifold 8.

Radian Studio / Manifold Viewer do not have these features at the moment.

(Here's what I would do: transfer the images to Manifold 8, register them there, then open the MAP file in Radian and save a copy of it - the copy will be in the Radian MAP file format - and use that copy in Radian / Viewer for whatever is next.)

Dimitri


4,899 post(s)
#28-Jun-17 15:18

included in an ArcGIS DataBase

Do you mean an ESRI geodatabase? If so, what specific type of ESRI geodatabase? If you mean stored in a database server somewhere, what is the database?

I ask because the most efficient way of transferring data is if the Manifold tool could read it directly in the native format. That's not something to give up on without investing a bit into the fight. :-)

We need to evaluate the quality and coverage of these photo (11 photos from 300Mo to 3Go), and then edit map (in pdf, and print them) overlaying photos and vectors data

Sounds like a cool application, the sort of thing for which any good GIS should be useful. When you say "edit map (in pdf..." I don't quite follow: do you mean you want to edit some stack of layers in whatever GIS you are using, compose a print layout and save the print layout as a PDF?

I ask because details count very much in these things, so the more precisely you can describe your workflow and what result you want the better the odds are that you can get what you want.

If Radian has no "Manifold Layout"-like object, if Radian has no "Manifold controll point"-like tool it is not the tool we need for registering photo and printing maps

No, not yet. There is no need to guess at any of this, as the Radian user manual covers everything Radian does. There is a good initial summary in in the Introduction topic.

That's the sort of thing that would appear in Release 9 or any other GIS based on Radian.

If Radian (and Manifold Viewer) can import and save (in few hours) my manifoldV8 .map file of 9Go and then open it in few seconds that can be helpfull for working with theses photos when they will be registered.

More precisely, once you do what you need to do in Release 8 [with big images this will take a lot of patience and good workflow planning, like setting up the job at the end of the week and then going off for the weekend...], you'd open the Release 8 .map file in Radian and save it as a Radian .map file. After that, either Viewer or Radian could open it instantly.

By "instantly" I mean literally that. See the YouTube video of Viewer opening a 36 GB file instantly and then panning and zooming in it.

Corentin47 post(s)
#28-Jun-17 17:42

I only used once ArcGIS system and I am a bit confused by their way to store data...

The data (including the photos) are in a local folder with an .gdb extension (the total size of the folder is 13Go). In this folder there is many files including 10 files of the size of my photo with .gdbtable extension.

I can link (or import) data from this folder into Manifold Viewer, I got drawings and tables, but no images.

We will need to overlay theses photos with some vector data like roads, electricity network, lakes... Use these photos to draw vector data (point building, trees, poles, roads...) and then edit Layouts in ManifoldV8 to edit PDF to share with our not-GIS-experts colleagues. For know since we don't know the quality of these photos we are not sure of what we are going to do with them...

Release 8 [with big images this will take a lot of patience and good workflow planning, like setting up the job at the end of the week and then going off for the weekend...]

you'd open the Release 8 .map file in Radian and save it as a Radian .map file

I think that is what we are going to do.

I saw your video about "instantly opening big photos", and that is why I had big expectation on Radian for this task ;)

adamw


7,972 post(s)
#29-Jun-17 06:35

The data (including the photos) are in a local folder with an .gdb extension (the total size of the folder is 13Go). In this folder there is many files including 10 files of the size of my photo with .gdbtable extension.

I can link (or import) data from this folder into Manifold Viewer, I got drawings and tables, but no images.

The images are stored in an ESRI file geodatabase then.

We are working with these databases through ESRI's file geodatabase SDK, that's the official way to work with them. It is rather unfortunate that the current version of the SDK does not allow accessing raster data. If and when ESRI extends the SDK to support that, we will extend our code as well and you will be able to link images directly from the geodatabase.

mdsumner


4,204 post(s)
#19-Aug-17 15:53

If you need to go rogue the utility linked to here works well to convert to GTiff https://trac.osgeo.org/gdal/ticket/7008


https://github.com/mdsumner

KlausDE

6,184 post(s)
#29-Jun-17 07:24

For tasks like this I export the images into a folder with PRJ and over night let the script BatchTIFF2ECW convert them into a format, that Manfold8 can link.

You have to adopt the projection and the source file format.

Attachments:
Batch Tiff2ECW.txt

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