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GeoJoel9 post(s)
#22-Feb-18 19:34

I am investigating the use of Manifold at a California state agency and need to find a reseller that will also support the product.

Not required but it’s best if the VAR is already doing business with the State of California, is a small business and/or a disabled veteran business.

Is there a list of Manifold VARs somewhere?

dchall8
1,008 post(s)
#22-Feb-18 23:03

What do you need? Three estimates from different vendors?

GeoJoel9 post(s)
#23-Feb-18 01:02

3 would be best, but I have none at this time. Manifold is so specialized we may be able to work around the issue of needed. So far I have found one out of state VAR but I always get backlash for that.

Know any Manifold VARs?

dchall8
1,008 post(s)
#23-Feb-18 14:15

I am certainly no expert on resellers for Manifold, but after using it for 14 years, I have not heard of any VARs for Manifold software. Usually the ridiculously low cost of Manifold obviates the argument for buying alternative software from, say, ESRI.

What are you planning to use Manifold for?

GeoJoel9 post(s)
#23-Feb-18 17:51

I am hoping Manifold will spatialy process CA state wide street centerline data a lot faster than ESRI's ArcMap. Using 2 fast Workstations it takes me 9-10 weeks to prepare a new set of streets, 5.8 million segments.

dchall8
1,008 post(s)
#23-Feb-18 21:13

I am hoping Manifold will spatialy process CA state wide street centerline data a lot faster than ESRI's ArcMap. Using 2 fast Workstations it takes me 9-10 weeks to prepare a new set of streets, 5.8 million segments.

I think you're going to like Manifold 9. You can download the free viewer and see what it does with your data set. The limitations with the free viewer are that you cannot save the project, and it does not do parallel processing with a NVIDIA graphics card.

Regarding large data sets, I have 1 TB of LiDAR data on my hard drive. With some clever query from the folks on this forum, Manifold 9 sifted through 50 billion points to find the 95 million points I needed for my county. That filtering and import process took a couple hours, but once it was in Manifold, it saves and starts up in 1 second.

Just out of curiosity, how long does it take for ArcGIS to open your project?

GeoJoel9 post(s)
#23-Feb-18 18:23

You have 14 years using Manifold! Wow.

I just learned of Manifold 2 weeks ago. I work with street centerline data adding EMS services and Beat data fields. On a very fast computer it takes me a full day to geoprocess one attribute onto a set of California streets in ESRI's ArcMap. Is that normal? I don't have Manifold yet, can't wait to try it out but first I need to learn SQL.

artlembo


3,400 post(s)
online
#23-Feb-18 19:21

Manifold 9 should be able to process the data fairly well. I've got some blog posts on Manifold with big data:

Processing 140GB of streets for the entire US

Manifold 9 with NYC Taxi data

Big data analytics - adding data

Big data analytics - turning points into lines

Big data analytics with SQL

and, since you are interested in California data, I just gave a workshop in Long Beach on big data geoanalytics.

my course in big data geo analytics will also go over how to assign data from one layer to other layers using the parallel processing techniques in Manifold 9. Manifold is actually highlighting a 75% discount offer for the training on their website. The link for the training is here.

If you want, I can potentially look at ways to process the 5.8M segments and the beat data. Just contact me off line. In the meantime, enjoy the above videos.

GeoJoel9 post(s)
#23-Feb-18 22:27

AWSOME and than you. I can hardly wait to get and learn Manifold, 6-9 months before I can get a PO authorized. I will start your training with PostgreSQL ASAP.

GeoJoel9 post(s)
#23-Feb-18 22:37

In GIS I have only used ArcMap to process data, never SQL but I see you have a "How do I do that in Manifold SQL" for v. 8. How well will the book work for v. 9? Might we see a v. 9 book out soon?

artlembo


3,400 post(s)
online
#23-Feb-18 22:52

The manifold 8 SQL class would be very helpful because it will show you just how powerful SQL is. But, the syntax is quite different. I also have the postgis SQL class - same thing. It will teach you about the power of SQL but the syntax is different.

I would do the book tomorrow, but I think 9 lacks a lot of features the book defines and there would be too many holes in the book that might look embarrassing. But, I will take another look at things and maybe just produce the book anyway – I’ve got about 60% of it written.

Dimitri


7,413 post(s)
#24-Feb-18 16:06

I think 9 lacks a lot of features the book defines

Send in the list. :-)

Also... discuss here whenever you hit a hole... never know if there is a different way to do the same thing in 9.

artlembo


3,400 post(s)
online
#24-Feb-18 17:57

just a quick couple:

  1. IntersectionPoint (ala 8)
  2. Raster to Vector
  3. Vector to Raster
  4. Scale a Raster
  5. Change a raster value based on a vector object
  6. Creating Contours
  7. Map Algebra functions for rasters (add, subtract, multiply, divide, etc.) - both on an individual and multiple layers
  8. Focal functions on rasters (min, max, variety, etc.)
  9. Split areas with lines (i.e. the old Split With in 8).
  10. Generate watersheds
  11. Create an optimal path
  12. Drive time zones

adamw


10,447 post(s)
#26-Feb-18 15:40

We have all of these items on board. A few can be done right now, although the process could be more friendly. Specifically:

4 - Scale a Raster - can do now via reprojection using either SQL or UI, with UI needing improvements.

5 - Change a raster value based on a vector object - can do now using SQL, but not easily.

7 - Map algebra - can do now using either SQL or UI, with UI needing improvements.

8 - Focal functions on rasters - can do now using SQL + script, the script is fairly simple, but since it's a script, this rates as not available easily.

Once again, we are going to both do the remaining items and improve all of the above items, even though they are available with some effort now. We agree they should take less effort and be easily accessible from the UI.

Dimitri


7,413 post(s)
#24-Feb-18 16:44

I have not heard of any VARs

"VAR" = Value Added Reseller. See Resellers and Reselling Manifold. Those pages set forth the foundation for a) an end user looking for a reseller and b) a VAR looking to use Manifold in value-added sales.

The bottom line to all that is there is no niche in the ecosystem for resellers who do not add significant value. Significant value usually means a vertical application of some sort where a Manifold runtime is the engine, and "significant value" means the application is sold for vastly more than the cost of the $50 or $100 runtime license that powers it.

There are applications out there based on Manifold which cost $50,000 per year to license. Manifold does not require such VARs to disclose they use Manifold. Human nature being what it is such VARs do not have an incentive to tell customers their $50,000 (or even $5,000) purchase is running on a $50 license.

Reseller niches that provide more visible resale for Manifold don't normally exist because Manifold will not artificially enforce a distributor/dealer model. Given that anybody on the planet can order factory-direct from Manifold online, there are limited niches to provide value added in terms of traditional retail activities, like explaining the product line to folks who cannot self-serve by reading the website.

For the most part, those niches are occupied by resellers who serve the needs of organizations, the classic example being servicing a procurement process that cannot buy online with a secure credit card, offering paid support plans that align with the needs of a given organization and so on.

Such resellers have to be careful, since the world is full of people who are happy to burn a reseller's time for many hours and then they turn around and buy factory-direct online. It's a situation that retailers in many industries are confronting, as numerous bricks and mortar stores around the world are discovering: people come into a physical showroom, look at all the models, spend endless hours with salespeople taking the pros and cons of various models... and then they order online from Amazon to save a few bucks. That's true of everything from TVs to running shoes.

I guess there is also some culture shock going on as disruptive price/performance levels appear which are radically different than what was the norm in the past. Many big organizations/government agencies are using software that they expect to cost tens of thousands of dollars per seat for what 9 or 8 can do for a few hundred per seat or less. There are DBMS products in the 9 space that are not anywhere near as parallel or powerful as 9 which cost over $10,000 per year per seat, for example, and the very high price of a full ESRI suite is well-known.

Those prices and the mind-bending high cost of the sales apparatus that sells them into big organizations have understandably habituated users in those organizations to a model where a sales guy comes in and presents new products to them and so on. It's a very different model than, say, walking up to an In-n-Out burger counter and deciding whether you want a vanilla shake with that super-fresh double-double cheeseburger, handing over a few bucks cash and you're done.

The ability to get all the power and more of a zillion dollar data tool for the price of a burger, so to speak, means a real change in the procurement process. I think that's for the better, more power for vastly less price, but for all that betterness there's going to be a time of transition as big organizations figure out how to best take advantage of the new levels of price/performance that are available. All that is OK. We are going to keep pushing on that imbalance, trying to lower real prices even lower with even more performance. Big fun for all! :-)

GeoJoel9 post(s)
#27-Feb-18 18:07

I admire our words, ethics and values. You describe the issues well but challenge you to except the reality you just described and hope for a compromise to benefit both Manifold and the GIS community.

Keep in mind that in the public sector: Policy is King- not the bottom line.

I work in a government agency where not-so-technical management must make decisions based on contracted vendor's system requirements. Therefore; we are an "ESRI Shop" and deviating from an ESRI product sounds dangerous to management making them very nervous to let us try something different.

For us, purchasing Manifold as an ESRI extension would be a lot easier. We are used to paying ESRI for extensions every year. It's policy, and policy is King. Compared to the cost of our much bigger systems, paying ESRI every year is budget dust, not worth examining and evaluating every dollar spent with them.

In the end, if I can't get management to authorize the procurement I will pay for Manifold out of my own pocket. I am thankful Manifold has a reasonable price.

BerndD

162 post(s)
#27-Feb-18 18:22

For example, we do have a lot of clients that are using our GeoCockpit MapServer to deploy their data.

Lots of the data comes from ESRI, QGIS or whatever is available to them.

The MapServer is built on top of Manifold and consumes data directly from a Manifold map.

In that case our MapServer becomes the extension of ESRI, QGIS, etc. and Manifold GIS is used to configure that MapServer. Even though it is not a true plug in to the other world, yet it enhances capabilities here and there and sometimes it even helps to lower the cost.

Manifold GIS is big in consuming all sorts and formats of data. So from a policy standpoint our selling point is rarely a replacement of an existing GIS but more the one of another integrating tool in the clients toolbox to get the job done.


Organizations that want to adapt to CHANGE are using products that can adapt.

www.yeymaps.io

dchall8
1,008 post(s)
#27-Feb-18 19:19

In the end, if I can't get management to authorize the procurement I will pay for Manifold out of my own pocket. I am thankful Manifold has a reasonable price.

That's how I started with it in 2004. Within a week they bought me new a computer and the full pro version of Adobe Acrobat. They liked the results.

Dimitri


7,413 post(s)
#27-Feb-18 21:56

For us, purchasing Manifold as an ESRI extension would be a lot easier.

ESRI helps sell a lot of Manifold product. They have done a great job of educating government organizations in the US and, to an increasing extent, outside of the US, on the wisdom of spending big on GIS software. To the extent that spending on GIS becomes a routine part of government budgets worldwide that helps everyone who occupies some niche in the GIS ecosystem.

The classic way to buy Manifold in an ESRI organization is as a format converter for ESRI. It's an accessory that increases the value the organization gets out of its investment in ESRI. Buy it that way and nobody will complain. Let people discover on their own it can do more.

BerndD

162 post(s)
#23-Feb-18 16:13

We are located in Lake Wylie, South Carolina.

If you need an offer, we would be glad to assist you with that.

You can shoot me an email at bernie.drahola (at) drahola.com


Organizations that want to adapt to CHANGE are using products that can adapt.

www.yeymaps.io

GeoJoel9 post(s)
#23-Feb-18 17:52

I will shoot you an email soon, our I may just call you.

BerndD

162 post(s)
#26-Feb-18 18:34

I guess we missed each other on our website chat last Friday.

Please, shoot me an email if you have any questions.

As for your street centerlines I think Manifold would be a good fit.

I recently used OSM data of North and South Carolina combined and was quite pleased with the Manifold 9 performance.


Organizations that want to adapt to CHANGE are using products that can adapt.

www.yeymaps.io

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