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JPMapas
25 post(s)
#30-Jun-20 10:35

Hello,

I bought the MR9 a couple of months ago. The program is very good, but unfortunately, it has a serious problem!!!! The problem it's having only one output for a PDF file, and worst, the result is a PDF file full of pixelated vectors!

I need an output, as it existed in the MR8, similar to AI files.

If this is not possible, does anyone know any good driver that allows an output to SVG?

Preferably, free, or low cost!

Regards

adamw


9,299 post(s)
#30-Jun-20 15:46

First, on PDF output - did you try using the Microsoft's driver (Microsoft Print to PDF, built into Windows 10)? If you used something else, try the Microsoft's driver as well, it is pretty good.

Second, on SVG - PDF Creator (free) reportedly does SVG. I didn't use it personally and I am a little skeptical of the results for mixed vector-raster output, but it is perhaps worth a try. One other thing you can do is can print to PostScript (plenty of printer drivers that do that, eg, from Adobe) and then convert the result to SVG (there are online converters as well as free tools).

JPMapas
25 post(s)
#30-Jun-20 16:22

Hello adamw,

I added two images to this post. One, it's the PDF created from the MR9, using the Windows 10 PDF driver. The other it's created from the MR8, using the export to PS and after, converted to SVG.

I thing the differences in quality are evident. That why I'm trying to solve this issue.

Regards

Attachments:
MR8 SVG.png
MR9 PDF.png

Dimitri

6,104 post(s)
#30-Jun-20 16:35

See the Notes at the end of the File - Print topic. There are many different print to PDF packages. If you don't like what Microsoft's package does, use a different one. As the topic says...

PDF printing software varies widely in quality and capabilities. Depending on the print-to-PDF software used, the resulting PDFs created can vary greatly in size and rendering quality, and may result in errors or strange displays depending on which PDF viewer is used.

adamw


9,299 post(s)
#30-Jun-20 16:43

It seems you want to keep the output vector, because the zooms on the attached screens are pretty high.

In this case, indeed try producing something like PostScript - 9 doesn't have a built-in export like 8 did, but you can use a printer driver from, eg, Adobe. Then convert to SVG like you did for 8.

JPMapas
25 post(s)
#30-Jun-20 17:06

Hello Dimitri,

Thanks for the suggestion. I have instaled the freePDF and I have the same result, everything pixelated.

Regards

HMS97 post(s)
#30-Jun-20 16:43

Hi JPMapas, you should try the approach suggested by Adam with Microsoft Print to PDF. Alternatively, I have had good results for layouts (combining both vector and raster files) with cutePDF printer (www.cutepdf.com). But I'm sure there are other worthy options regarding PostScript drivers.

HMS97 post(s)
#30-Jun-20 17:02

On a related topic (sort of), the M8 option to export a file to a pdf on the project pane with the right click menu was great when dealing with multiple layout exports inside the same project without having to open them. Given that with M9 the print option requires to open the layout to print it, does the suggestion to implement a shortcut to print on the right click menu makes any sense?

JPMapas
25 post(s)
#30-Jun-20 17:12

Hello HMS,

One of the images that I have post are made with the Windows 10 PDF Driver... The vectors are all pixelated... This doesn't happen with the MR 8...

Regards

HMS97 post(s)
#30-Jun-20 17:31

HI JPM, you can always try with other pdf printers, like CutePDF for instance. I had good results with this one, even with thin curved lines. It's free, so you just have to download and install it (if you don't have Ghostscript installed I believe the installation files will ask for permission to install it): https://www.cutepdf.com/Products/CutePDF/writer.asp

Dimitri

6,104 post(s)
#01-Jul-20 05:48

Good advice, as is the advice to try printing to PS.

One other thing: as noted in the user manual, the results you get viewing PDF depend a lot on the PDF viewer you use. PDF is a language, not a format, so how the viewer interprets the PDF command stream can alter what you see. The same PDF can look great in one viewer and wrong in another viewer. So try different viewers.

Also, if you are first converting PDF to SVG and then looking at SVG, the results you get may depend upon what the PDF to SVG converter does. It can end up being a test of how your converter handles different PDFs.

In general, 9 does a much better job at print layout quality than 8. Usually the result of "printing" a 9 layout is better than 8, so it is worth tracking down which printer software works best for the data you use.

adamw


9,299 post(s)
#01-Jul-20 09:27

Yes, we'll consider adding the Print command to the context menu for a layout in the Project pane.

lionel

648 post(s)
#01-Jul-20 10:21

Many years ago i test many HTML/XML To HTML/PDF converter and it was a nightmare ( FOP , python, xpath, xslt). So beautifull web site and hight cost but none was really efficient .

Manifold do have a asp Web JS jSscript server for their IM Server in M8 ( ims page , IMS_prog_examples.zip ) to convert their geom to SVG and i study it and like how matrix was use to manage reference coordinate and each geom type ) and create a desktop M8 custom script. I think this could appear when see how OScar from mediachance achieve this in their tool call Realdraw . I contact him for an update because with time SVG converter has too many issues , but a deprecated software not maintain anymore. I create a post about this IMS demo here and here ( search for "ims demo" )

For pdf printer i have issue like link but i think there is many ....

Here a small list of pdf virtual printer starting from wikipedia page .

perhaps one ll be better and suitable for you need ( not too many errors ).

Universal Document Converter https://www.print-driver.com/

Nova PDF https://www.novapdf.com/

Bullzip https://www.bullzip.com/

Do PDF https://www.dopdf.com/

Primo PDF https://www.primopdf.com/

Pdf 24 https://en.pdf24.org/

Cute PDF https://www.cutepdf.com/index.htm

pdfFiller https://www.pdffiller.com/

Pdf 995 http://www.pdf995.com/

Foxit https://www.sodapdf.com/

Cutepdf https://www.cutepdf.com/index.htm

Soda pro https://www.sodapdf.com/

i ll test some but it ll be really great if a manifold project demo that use the more functionnalities that manifold support in term of rendering text image vector (text , shape/geometry , line colors, link , layers, color, motif style, texte , icon, label). So any can print pdf with it own pdf printer !!

I think pdf editor matters even we can't edit really pdf ( we edit group of character line area) so i think name the pdf editor you have for test should be write : I ll test with serif affinity designer ( vector) and XpagePlus, adobe illustrator CS6 (never go to subscription model) . I don't havefoxit Phantom editors licence even i like it for the limit time i could test. Foxit have pdf server for form and search plug in for pdf so i think their are really pdf specialist for pdf/form. Microsoft MVP in their blog use foxit with script and i like foxit even there was malware in the past .

THere is many way to code SVG rendering in browser . I test them there is many years so i need to update my knowledge about this !

regard's

lionel

648 post(s)
#01-Jul-20 10:39

Does manifold 8 has it own pdf converter ( embedding so don't use 1/3 third driver) ?

there is also pdf to svg converter !!

but best ll be to have a geom to svg converter so by using a tool implemented by manifold team in M9 !!

I think M9 export to vector format so perhaps need to search starting from this file format ! but yes we loose all the formating style create in manifold !!

Does Manifold 9 support "export style" option that can be import/use in another software ?

Attachments:
maifold9_export_style.png
manifold9_export_vector.png

adamw


9,299 post(s)
#01-Jul-20 14:04

Manifold 8 does have its own PDF export. We would like to eventually provide a similar option in 9 as well. That's a question of development priorities. Rendering in 9 is significantly more complex than it was in 8 and that makes adding an option to produce a PDF more difficult than for 8, but the produced PDF will be better as well (curves would stay curves more often, rasters of different resolutions could perhaps avoid getting smashed into a common resolution, vector-raster mixes could also behave better, etc).

Regarding exporting to SVG, we could do that, of course, but if the idea is to export vectors with styles (which it seemingly is), we'd rather export to PDF first. Exporting vectors with styles is pretty complex, especially given that such support would have to be kept up to date with new features that styles will inevitably be getting over time. The bulk of the complexity is in translating various styling features accurately and efficiently. Compared to that it doesn't matter much whether the target format is SVG or PDF. Given the above, we'd rather export to PDF first, because that's the most important format in this area. Then perhaps to PostScript because it shares a lot with PDF, and only then SVG and other formats.

JPMapas
25 post(s)
#02-Jul-20 10:20

Hello,

Thanks you all for helping.

In the last two days I was testing several solutions with the M9. I have install several PDF software. I have install drivers for PostScript print file. I have found that with same drawings I have pixelization when I print to PDF and with other drawings I don't have pixelization. I have compared the output of the same drawings with the M8, and everything it's ok in this old version of the Manifold. It's a strange behaviour.

For now, I decided that I will use the M8 for cartographic work that I could have for publish in books because the M8 has a very good export output, and for other works I will use the M9.

It's a pitty because the M9 it's a very very good GIS software, but infortunatly with a downgrade in the output export compared with the M8.

Regards to all.

adamw


9,299 post(s)
#02-Jul-20 14:01

Thanks a lot for taking the time to post this.

If you could spend just a couple more minutes, since you said that some drawings show pixelization and others don't, could you post example data with both types of drawings and note which exact settings you use when you are printing to PDF using whichever driver you think produces best results. The drawings don't have to be big and they don't have to have any data besides whatever fields are used for styles. If you did this, we would be able to experiment with the data and possibly suggest which printing options to tune and how, to make the output better.

Long-term, we are planning to provide an option to export to PDF using our own code, which would give us ultimate control over what gets rasterized and how - then we would keep vectors vectors for as long as possible.

JPMapas
25 post(s)
#02-Jul-20 15:04

Hello Adamw

Thanks for the replay. I have made an exercise and I hope that is what you have asking for.

So, using the same shapefile (the zip file). I have choose the one with pixelation problems.

I import the shape into the M8 and: 1. I use the Win10 Printer Driver; and 2. I use the Export to PDF Tool. In both files, I have good results.

After, I import the same shape into the M9 and I use the Win10 Printer Driver. As you can see, it's a bad result. In first, I have a very strange shape with a black color line. If I delete this one, I have a shape pixelated.

I have used the Affinity Designer 1.8.3 to open the PDFs. But the problem it's the same if I use the Inkscape.

Regards

Attachments:
ArqAcores_GCentral_AAd_CAOP2019.zip
M8 Export PDF Tool.pdf
M8 Win10 Printer Driver.pdf
M9 Win10 Printer Driver.pdf

Dimitri

6,104 post(s)
#02-Jul-20 16:22

Thanks for posting the samples! I get the impression this is more about using different style settings in 9 than in 8, perhaps coupled with the print to pdf software and maybe the viewing software. Here's what I did:

1. Import the shapefile into 8.

2. Save that project as a release 8 .map.

3. Import that release 8 .map into 9: this is to get the same colors/formatting in both systems to make as close a comparison as possible of the same thing.

4. 9 uses slightly different (more accurate) rendering, so I used Style to set area border thickness of 0.5. That gave the same visual appearance in 9 as in 8.

5. Create an A4 sized layout, drag and drop the drawing into the layout, print using Adobe print to PDF software.

6. View the 8 pdf you provided and also the 9 pdf created above, both viewed in Adobe Acrobat Reader. Just for the heck of it, I figured it was worth looking at a PDF Adobe created using an Adobe viewer

Here are the results: they look very close. First, the 8 pdf and then second the 9 pdf.

Attachments:
8_pdf.png
9_pdf.png

adamw


9,299 post(s)
#02-Jul-20 16:36

I get it now. Thanks for mentioning Inkscape.

The reason the edges in the PDF printed from 9 appear jaggier at (very) high zooms than in the PDF printed from 8 is that 9 prints using a newer graphics API (DirectX) by default, and 8 prints using an older one (GDI).

9 can fallback to the older API as well. Many of the styling features will be disabled (you won't see them on the screen), but for the simple default styles that you are using this won't matter, the default styles don't use any of those features. To make 9 use GDI, go into Options and set Graphics to 'Reduced'. Then print the layout that you want. Then perhaps switch Graphics back to 'Normal'. I checked and for the default styles this produces a PDF which is nearly exactly like the one in 8, sans the default black color for the area borders which in 8 was a shade of gray and better optimization for the coordinates.

JPMapas
25 post(s)
#02-Jul-20 18:07

Hello,

I'm going to try both suggestions, the one from Dimitri and the other from Adamw.

Regards

JPMapas
25 post(s)
#02-Jul-20 19:40

Hello,

I have tested the suggestion from Dimitri and I obtain the same result, everything pixelated.

I have tested the suggestion from Adamw and I obtain the same result, everything pixelated.

I added one of the shapefiles were I don't have any problems.

Regards

Attachments:
Gadm36_MAC_2 Drawing.zip
Teste Dimitri 1.pdf

adamw


9,299 post(s)
#03-Jul-20 08:39

I think I understand.

In order to see pixelation we have to remove the border. You do this in one of the screens manually, that can also be done by turning the border off in styles.

The pixelation happens because 9 adjusts to the final output resolution of the device and 8 does not. There are pros and cons both ways, for your scenario what 8 does is better. You could try making 9 behave more like 8 by increasing the resolution for the virtual printing device that the PDF printing software reports to printing clients, but I suspect not many drivers would allow adjusting that.

We'll think about how to handle this better in 9.

Dimitri

6,104 post(s)
#03-Jul-20 10:01

I don't understand. I opened your file Teste Dimitri 1.pdf in Adobe Acrobat Reader DC and what I got is seen below at 2400% zoom. I can't see any pixelation. What do you mean by "everything pixelated"?

Attachments:
teste_pdf.png

JPMapas
25 post(s)
#03-Jul-20 18:59

Hello Dimitri,

I wrote in my post that "I added one of the shapefiles were I don't have any problems."

I don't have any problem with that cartographic database.

Regards

dchall8
760 post(s)
#03-Jul-20 01:13

Manifold 8 does have its own PDF export. We would like to eventually provide a similar option in 9 as well.

For what it's worth, I found the PDF exporter in M8 to be exquisite. I printed/plotted many large format maps using a Google background (lightened). I especially liked the ability to print a layered PDF with only the layers open on the map. If I had one further wish it would be the option as to which layers were "on" when the PDF was opened. The only software I've found to turn layers off and save that default has been the Adobe Acrobat Pro from about 2010, several computers and generations ago. I know there are various versions of "Pro", so maybe I have simply not invested enough into my Adobe suite.

antoniocarlos

538 post(s)
#03-Jul-20 01:33

I was about to write something similar. The PDF export function in M8 (particularly layers and the multi page function) was one if its most powerful features. Many of my clients (1) did not want to learn GIS which is understandable(2) did not trust an internet dependent dashboard ala ArcGIS On-line and preferred off line capabilities (3) wanted to share the maps.

I think that right now M9 needs more polishing in its interface before jumping to new features. I'll let the programmers work. :-)


How soon?

JPMapas
25 post(s)
#05-Jul-20 11:44

Hello to all,

Fist, thanks to all that have trying to help me, but all solutions presented did not solved.

I have made a lot of tests by using cartographic bases imported as a SHP, imported from M8, imported as a MIF/MID, created directly on the M9, and have the same results, until I discovery one thing:

I have the problem that I reported in all cartografic bases that have geometries with a big number of nodes!!!

As example, it's because of that, that I have problems with the cartografic base with the name ArqAcores*.zip because the geometries have lots of nodes, and in the GDAM36*zip, I don't have problems because the cartografic base has a few number of nodes.

Regards

Attachments:
node.png

adamw


9,299 post(s)
#06-Jul-20 08:12

Yes, that's the reason. I should have spelled it out clearer in my last post where I said that the reason for the difference between 8 and 9 is that 9 adjusts to the output resolution (read: allows removing near-equal coordinates) and 8 does not.

Coming to think of this again, you can try reducing the number of coordinates in 9 by running the Normalize Topology transform on the drawing that you are going to print, with a tolerance value corresponding to the distance difference you are fine with erasing (a good starting point would be the typical width of an area border).

JPMapas
25 post(s)
#10-Jul-20 10:44

Hello Adamw

I have tried the reduction of the number of coordinates with the Normalize Topology, but it's not a valid solution.

I will use the M8 for outputs to my cartographic works for publishers :(

Thanks for helping.

Regards.

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